A Youtube Ecumenical Debate: Mary and Idols

I was reading an exchange between an anti-catholic gentleman and a catholic speaker, Robert Haddad. On his Youtube channel, the catholic speaker got challenged about his belief, and from there a courteous debate followed. I want to share only one theme that was debated among many. It made me chuckle and shake my head with amusement. The lesson of this debate is, "Never assume that someone doesn't know what he is talking about unless you know that for a fact". Please enjoy!

......................

The anti-Catholic gentleman:

Amazing to see you use Bible Scriptures to prove your beliefs. Well presented. Why don't you do the same thing for ALL your doctrines? Luke 11:27 As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and blessed are the breasts that nursed You.” 28 But He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” 9 So then, this is how you should pray: ‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name, And do not call anyone on earth your father, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Further. Like the Idol nailed to the cross that shared most of your presentation. Find me some SCRIPTURAL support for that as well. A lot of your doctrines have NO SCRIPTURE to stand on.

The Catholic speaker,Robert Haddad, responded:

I am happy to provide what you ask for.

A. THE BLESSED MARY Firstly, to your first objection: The simple response one can give to this objection is that given by St Augustine of Hippo: the Virgin Mary was the only person who had both the privilege to bear and suckle the Christ-child and the distinction of hearing and keeping the word of God. Furthermore, if she had not persevered in keeping the word of God throughout her entire life she would not have been present at the foot of the Cross during the darkest hour or on Mt Olivet or in the Cenacle in the moments of final triumph and glory. With regard to the quote itself, the ex-Protestant Catholic apologist James Akin makes the following valuable point:

… the Greek word here translated ‘rather’ (menoun) does not have anything like the adversive force in Greek that ‘rather’ does in English. It is simply an emphatic particle normally rendered ‘and.’ Thus, if Bibles had italics for emphasis, the passage would be better translated: ‘He said, And blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!’ He is not denying what she said, he is emphatically adding something to what she said. (Internet Question Box, 4/26/99).

In Phil. 3:7-8 the same word menoun again appears and is usually translated as “indeed,” with the meaning of “yes, and in addition to.” B. IDOLS

Regarding statues and images: Regarding the scriptural prohibition of images, the real purpose of the commandment is to steer the people of God away from idolatry, that is, the worship of any false god. Consider the following passages: “For they would turn away your sons from following me, to serve other gods; then the anger of the Lord would be kindled against you, and he would destroy you quickly. But thus shall you deal with them: you shall break down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and hew down their Asherim, and burn their graven images with fire” (Deut. 7:4-5). “And the people of Israel did secretly against the Lord their God things that were not right. They built for themselves high places at all their towns, from watchtower to fortified city; they set up for themselves pillars and Asherim on every high hill and under every green tree; and there they burned incense on all the high places, as the nations did whom the Lord carried away before them. And they did wicked things, provoking the Lord to anger, and they served idols, of which the Lord had said to them, ‘You shall not do this’” (2 Kgs 17:9-12). God obviously abhors idolatry; however, in the same Scriptures we see the Jews making statues for legitimate religious purposes, and under God’s command: “And the Lord said to Moses, ‘Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.’ So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live” (Num. 21:8-9). When the bronze serpent was later adored by some Jews, rather than simply venerated, it was destroyed:“He [Hezekiah] removed the high places, and broke the pillars, and cut down the Asherah. And he broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the people of Israel had burned incense to it; it was called Nehushtan” (2 Kgs 18:4). In the construction of the Ark of the Covenant God gave the following instructions: “And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be turned toward the mercy seat” (Exod. 25:18-20). The Temple of Jerusalem was thoroughly decorated with statues of all kinds: “In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim of olivewood, each ten cubits high” (1 Kgs 6:23).“The height of one cherub was ten cubits, and so was that of the other cherub. He put the cherubim in the innermost part of the house; and the wings of the cherubim were spread out so that a wing of one touched the one wall, and a wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; their other wings touched each other in the middle of the house” (1 Kgs 6:26-27). “… and on the panels that were set in the frames were lions, oxen, and cherubim. Upon the frames, both above and below the lions and oxen, there were wreaths of beveled work” (1 Kgs 7:29). “… for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord” (1 Chron. 28:18). “In the most holy place he made two cherubim of wood and overlaid them with gold” (2 Chron. 3:10). “Under it were figures of gourds, for thirty cubits, compassing the sea round about; the gourds were in two rows, cast with it when it was cast. It stood upon twelve oxen, three facing north, three facing west, three facing south, and three facing east; the sea was set upon them, and all their hinder parts were inward” (2 Chron. 4:3-4).“It was formed of cherubim and palm trees, a palm tree between cherub and cherub. Every cherub had two faces” (Ezek. 41:17-18). The Temple with all these statues was built by Solomon. What is remarkable is that just after construction was begun God spoke to Solomon as follows: “Now the word of the Lord came to Solomon, ‘Concerning this house which you are building, if you will walk in my statutes and obey my ordinances and keep all my commandments and walk in them, then I will establish my word with you, which I spoke to David your father. And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel.’” (1 Kgs 6:11-14). What does Solomon do in the light of God’s admonition to “walk in my statutes and obey my ordinances and keep all my commandments”? He carves statues for the house of the Lord, and to the Lord’s delight!: “When Solomon had finished building the house of the Lord and the king’s house and all that Solomon desired to build, the Lord appeared to Solomon a second time, as he had appeared to him at Gibeon. And the Lord said to him, ‘I have heard your prayer and your supplication, which you have made before me; I have consecrated this house which you have built, and put my name there for ever; my eyes and my heart will be there for all time’” (1 Kgs 9:1-3). The ancient Jewish practice in this regard was very strict, for they were prone to imitate the idolatry of the pagans around them. The early Christians, who lived in the age of the Incarnation, had no such difficulty. So the Catacombs are a treasury of paintings, gilded glasses, depicting scenes from the lives of Jesus, his Mother, the Apostles and other persons of the Old and New Testaments. The mind of the early Christians was clearly a Catholic mind. It follows that if the Commandments prohibited the making of all images whatsoever, Protestants ought to remove and destroy all their statues of political, military, artistic and sporting heroes, as well as all their pictures of relatives and friends. Common sense, though, tells us that such would be an absurd outcome. The homage given to the image refers to the prototype it represents. Pagans either adore the statue/image itself or the statue/image represents a being that has no existence. Regarding the crucifix, this is not an idol because it does not represent a false god but represents Jesus and what he did for us. Christians see in the Cross of Jesus the great love he had for us and with St Paul would say, “But far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world” (Gal. 6:14). Thus, we see the value of the Catholic practice of placing an image of Jesus upon crosses to form the image of the crucifix. It is a means by which we “preach Christ crucified” and show forth “the power of God and the wisdom of God” (1 Cor. 1:23-24).